Subject to PSI Regulations!

London: 2nd May 2007

Government Minister states during a debate in the UK House of Lords on an amendment related to pricing of services within the Statistics and Registration Services Bill that public bodies must comply with:

“the Freedom of Information Act, Competition law and Re-use of Public Sector Information regulations.”

Parliamentary material is reproduced with the permission of the Controller of HMSO on behalf of Parliament

Statistics and Registration Service Bill

“House again in Committee on Clause 20.

Baroness Noakes moved Amendment No. 106:

Clause 20, page 9, line 25, at end insert—

“( ) The Board shall charge for any services provided under this section and the charge for any service shall be not less than the full cost of delivering the service.”

The noble Baroness said: The amendment is a probing amendment. Under Clause 20, the board can provide various statistical services to anyone, anywhere. I am not sure that this should be in any way a priority for the new board, but we have no objection to it. Amendment No. 106 would add a new subsection to Clause 20 and require the board to charge for services provided on a full-cost basis.

The Explanatory Notes state that the ONS provides statistical services to developing countries. I am sure that that is laudable, but I hope that any such service would be funded out of the budget of the Department for International Development and not that of the Statistics Board. As far as I can see, the board has no function that would authorise it to absorb such expenditure.

By tabling the amendment, I am seeking to find out how the charging arrangements are intended to work. I hope that the Minister will assure the Committee that the board will not use its resources for purposes other than the functions set out in the Bill or that, if it does, it will recover its full costs. I beg to move.

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Lord Davies of Oldham: The services that the ONS currently provides—that is, providing information and advice and undertaking surveys—are those that we envisage the board undertaking. The services will be discretionary; there is no obligation to provide them. Any charging is permitted by Clause 24 as expedient in connection with the exercise of the board's functions.

There is no need for an express charging power or a duty to charge for any services being provided. As with any government department, the board will be subject to cross-government rules and guidelines on what it may charge for services. These rules are designed to ensure that government departments and public bodies charge appropriately. For example, as with any government department, the board will be subject to the Freedom of Information Act, competition law and the Re-use of Public Sector Information Regulations so far as selling information for commercial re-use is concerned. The board will be subject also to a range of cross-governmental administrative rules that set out when it would be able to charge.

The problem with the amendment is that the board would lose this flexibility. The amendment is unnecessary, as the board will be covered by the wider detailed framework on charging for services that applies to all government departments.

The noble Baroness may be right that services may be provided to third-world countries on the basis of funding from the Department for International Development, but it is not for us to specify such arrangements in the Bill. The board will fit into the pattern of all public bodies and be subject to the same rules governing the basis on which it may charge. It has the right to do so; none of its functions is obligatory. I hope that the noble Baroness will therefore recognise that we have taken into account the concerns that she expressed and have addressed them in the Bill.

Baroness Noakes: Is it possible for the Statistics Board to do pro bono work under the Bill?

Lord Davies of Oldham: Only within the framework of the government rules and regulations that cover departments. It is the same as for any public body in those terms. Departments have different relationships with the client groups and bodies with which they are concerned. The board is no different from any other in that respect.

Baroness Noakes: I am grateful for the Minister's response. He said that the board was no different from any other body, but did not tell me what the current rules for government departments are. I seek clarification.

Lord Davies of Oldham: The rules set out certain areas where charges are obligatory for what the Government provide. However, there are elements of discretion within the framework. The noble Baroness will recognise that there might be a body to which the board relates where it was deemed part of public policy that no charging be effected. That would be against a general background of charging in the same way as other public bodies, however.

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Baroness Noakes: I regard the Minister's response as somewhat unsatisfactory. We are told that the board is to be independent, yet I cannot get a clear answer as to whether it is to follow government policy elsewhere on providing services at full cost or otherwise. The Minister has not really answered the question of whether it should be charging for all services. The issue is not that it is not right sometimes for government to subsidise services, but whether the Statistics Board should be using its clear financial envelope—set out in this five-year settlement that we keep being told about—for the statistical functions in the Bill. I seek to ascertain to what extent the board may, should or could divert its resources elsewhere. Can the Minister clarify that further?

Lord Davies of Oldham: The noble Baroness is quite right that the board has a five-year settlement. She will also recognise that there may be opportunities for additional receipts from its charging for services commissioned from it, and that those are additional resources.

I confess to the noble Baroness that I stumbled a little on her question about pro bono, which is a particular concept. I will write to her on that point, but I am glad that she has drawn attention to the board's five-year settlement on its own resources. She will also recognise that, like the ONS, the board will have the capacity to charge and increase its resources where appropriate.

Baroness Noakes: I thank the Minister for offering to write, and welcome that. He will be aware that I was not so much worried about the Statistics Board increasing the resources that might otherwise be available for its proper purposes as about those resources being diminished. I hope that he will take that into account when he writes to me. I look forward to that letter, and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 20 agreed to.”